Monday, February 15, 2010

Repetitio est mater studiorum...right?

I'm sure the above Latin phrase is something we have all come across at some point or another. "Repetition is the mother of learning." The more often you repeat something, the better you will learn it. This is logical, common sense, tried and true, an' a' that (points for the reference).

So why is it that we use the SRS in our language learning? The purpose of an SRS is to space repetitions out (hence the name), so that a word is repeated the minimum number of times necessary for retention. This, as Keith points out in his latest blog entry, is at odds with how languages are learned. Go read that post. Lots to think about.

In addition, keeping up with your reviews, as I'm sure many have noticed, is a drag. Really. It sucks. Do you really need to read that sentence again to make sure you still understand it? Not likely. Will it bore you to tears to read it again? Yeah, probably.

And I think that's the problem with the SRS. It sometimes takes two hours just to review a bunch of crap you already know. I think we SRSers do way to much reviewing and not nearly enough learning. That's about as boring as it gets. It's very rare for me to have to fail a sentence card. Extremely rare. I'm certainly not going to forget how to read something within a couple weeks, so why review it three times in those two weeks? As long as you're reviewing stuff periodically, you shouldn't forget it. And of course I by "review" I don't mean reading an isolated sentence in Anki and marking a number. I mean simply going back to that newspaper article or comic book chapter or whatever it was you worked through a while back, and reading it again. If it was an audio clip, listen to it again. Do you still understand it? Yeah, probably.

So I'm thinking about going with a simpler, more traditional self-study method. I may give the SRS the boot altogether, but I'll probably still use it for character recognition. I mean particularly the rarer ones. This is a skill that I think will come in particularly handy for me, because as I get further into my study, I'll be using more and more classical texts and the likelihood of coming across more obscure characters will increase. If I've learned to recognize a fair number, I won't have to resort to a dictionary as often. And that type of thing is exactly what I think the SRS is best suited for: learning things you won't need to use very often. But as far as reaching fluency is concerned (as opposed to needing to read and decipher ancient texts), I think that if that word is important, it will show up again in other things you read. You may have to look it up again. Thankfully, with tools like Pleco, that's a pretty simple task. But you will, at some point, not have to look it up any more. And that point will be sooner rather than later if you're reinforcing your reading practice with writing, speaking, and listening practice with the same material.

I think the following seems to be a much more organic and effective approach (for me anyway):

Ideally, I'm fortunate enough to have both a text and an audio recording of the text. I can work through the text and look up all unknown words and characters in Pleco. Anything giving me trouble as far as grammar can usually be resolved by looking in my Dictionary for Readers of Modern Chinese Prose. I need to also get a grammar reference that goes beyond the beginner stage, but haven't yet. Once I've learned the new vocabulary and grammar, I'll read through the passage to make sure I can comprehend it. Next comes something like Dr. Arguelles's scriptorium method. I copy the passage out by hand and read it aloud. That's as far as it goes if I don't have the audio. If I do, however, I can then listen to the audio for comprehension. Many times, if I feel like I need to. That's the beauty of the iPod. I can also do something like Professor Arguelles's chorusing method, which I find helps a lot with speaking and pronunciation. I've quipped about his eccentricity plenty of times, but it turns out that his method is pretty solid.

Not that I'm recommending you march back and forth in a public space while making strange sounds in a loud voice, but his core approach to study is great.

Now, I know none of this is very exciting. It isn't sexy, it has no catchy acronyms or touchy-feely self-help BS, and it doesn't have an army of devoted, overzealous, fan boys. It's a fairly old school approach, with a few updates in technology (eg Pleco). But it's effective. And it doesn't make me want to shoot my computer when I sit down and realize it will take me 2 hours just to review a bunch of crap I already know.

Think about it. The big buzz word in second language acquisition is 'input,' not 'review.' Comprehensible input, i + 1, all that. I think if I increase the input and decrease the review time, my language skills can only improve for it. Or at least I won't be as bored.

We'll see.

9 comments :

  1. Nathan Cain - MandarinMnemonics.com said...

    When I learned Spanish I NEVER used flashcards or SRS reps. If SRS reps were required then I probably would give up on languages all together. I HATE it.

    If you read a lot and always look up the words you don't know then you will have automatic SRS (no reps) without the boredom.

  2. aeriph said...

    I don't think this is actually a problem with SRS. Just adjust settings to put a longer delay in between repetitions. Yeah, you don't need to review your sentences 3 times in two weeks, and you can set Anki or whatever to do that.

  3. ChineseQuest said...

    On the other side of that coin, however, is that I also shouldn't need to review the material I learn today a year from now, or even a few months from now. If I'm using the language, most of it will pop up in other contexts between now and then.

    Sure, I could adjust Anki's settings, and I could delete cards that become too easy. But that would all take away from study time, and a simpler solution would be what I talked about in the post. More input, more study, less unnecessary review.

  4. ChineseQuest said...

    I should clarify. If I increase the interval to the point that I don't see a card again for say, 2-3 weeks after the first review, I'll likely only see the card a few times in the space of a year. And if that's the case, then what's the point?

    Again, massive amounts of input in the language should be enough for me not to have to review the exact same sentence multiple times. And I can maximize the amount of input by minimizing the amount of review. That sentence hasn't changed, so why do I need to review it again?

  5. Jimjamjenny said...

    The point of using an SRS is to remind you of something right before you are about to forget it... so if you are being reminded of something a few times a year, then at least you're being reminded of it.

    It sounds to me like the problem isn't the SRS itself, but the fact that you have lots of cards which you just don't need to have in there anymore. I don't learn Chinese, so I can't give an example in that, but with Japanese... had I used an SRS right from the start, I would have words which I can't imagine ever forgetting now in there. Things like watashi (I) and iku (go).

    But you will come across these really really common words again and again - so there is no need to have them in your SRS. If you are coming across them a lot without using an SRS, then just delete the card. Problem solved! If, for whatever reason, you forget it later, you can add it back in.

    I'm at an advanced level now, and I use an SRS on a really regular basis, but I find it helps much more than it hinders me.

    If you want my advice (which you probably don't, but I'll give it to you anyway)

    1) Delete cards which you don't need anymore, or which you dread seeing - If there is something that you really want to remember, but the sentence you have it in is really boring, then delete that card and find a more interesting sentence that uses it! Google is your friend!

    2) Don't add things just because you feel you should - add things which you really want to learn. Or, if you are the kind of person who wants to know everything, set limits for yourself - For example, at the moment I am reading a novel, but I have limited myself to only focusing on 1 new word per page (although occasionally 2 if they are essential for understanding).

    3) Using the language and interacting with the language should always be more important than using your SRS. Always!

    4) Restrict your reviewing time - say you'll only do it for 15 minutes, or you'll only cover 30 cards. You don't have to review everything and be perfect!

    Other things that I've realised along the way -
    If I add sentences or whatever from something that I'm enjoying, be it a game, a book, or a drama, I enjoy reveiwing them much more than dry sentences from something I didn't really enjoy in the first place.

    If you are moving beyond everyday language, then an SRS is a really really good tool to use - some vocabulary I have come across I haven't heard for a few months after the first time I see it (despite being surrounded by Japanese), but the next time I hear it/see it, I know what it is because of the SRS.

    It really is useful! You just need to use it well! (I hope this didn't come off as really patronising and condescending because I didn't intend it in that way at all)

  6. ChineseQuest said...

    It doesn't come across as patronizing. Thanks for the input!

    I just think, at least for now (I have been known to change my approach), that what I outlined in the post is the best method for me. Deleting cards when you don't need them any more and doing all those other things just serve to further complicate things, and I think a simpler approach is often better.

    In regard to point #2, I'm in a different situation than most learners. I'm learning things that will be on my placement exam this fall, so I do have to learn things that I "should" rather than focusing on what I want. That's ok by me because it serves as good motivation.

    Point 4 I think is great advice, but hard for me to follow in reality. It's just my personality. I'm compelled to finish all the food on my plate. I'm compelled to do every assignment at school, even if it doesn't affect my grade. And if there is a certain number of reviews due, I'm compelled to do them all. If I remove said stimulus, then the compulsion also leaves. It's easy for me not to buy unhealthy food, but if it's in the house, it's nearly impossible for me not to want to eat it. My wife is exactly the opposite.

    So maybe I should say this: for me, reviewing SRS cards is a big drain on my study productivity. If you've found yourself in a similar situation, it may be worth rethinking how you approach language learning altogether.

    I know there are a lot of people who have used an SRS with great results, and that's great. But I don't think it's for everyone or for everything that needs to be learned. I may feel differently down the road (again, I've been known to change my approach), but for now I'm enjoying this new (old) way and it is working quite well for me.

  7. Jimjamjenny said...

    I actually seem to have pretty much the same approach to stuff as you do, so it took a lot of wrestling with myself to get me into the habit of actually deleting things and not adding everything that I felt that I should.

    But everyone has their own way of studying I guess! If you find that you miss your SRS you can always go back to it anyway, right?

    I hope that what you're doing now works well for you! ^_^

  8. Burritolingus said...

    This is a very interesting topic to me, as someone who's been using an SRS for the better part of the past year and a half, with very mixed results and feelings.

    Something I've never really understood is the practice of ONLY entering sentences you can fully understand. This certainly makes sense with grammar, but isn't it an exercise in redundancy where vocabulary is concerned? And if the word(s) is rare enough that you need to SRS it in order to memorize it, then is it really worth learning in the first place? There's a lot to consider.

    I'm sort of in the middle of "restructuring" my SRS usage, myself. It's been my most invaluable tool for learning and memorizing kanji (well, along with RTK), but as far as reviewing sentences... I'm just still not convinced it's necessary when I read regularly, watch lots of dramas and take notes all the time.

  9. MichaelCorayer said...

    I agree completely. There was a brief period of time that I was hooked on SRS, but it faded rather quickly. The dreaded review sessions seemed like a great way to destroy my motivation.

    Now I focus on just reading (and rereading) material. In this case, I actually don't mind rereading passages or dialogues that I've read before. This type of review seems to be much more enjoyable and has helped me to maintain my motivation.